Posts by True North

32

Do you think people are good?

by DanTheMan in

is there any such thing as good?.

the watchtower taught us that all people outside the org either willingly or unknowingly support satan, and soon will die for doing such.

those are some weird goggles to look at people through.. do you find that wt misanthropy still affects your thinking, and makes you feel that the whole world is bad and hopeless?

True North

At the very least I'd say that most people are good some of the time and some people are good most of the time.

Being good is also often compartmentalized. People are good to people in one compartment but not so good to people in another. For instance, there was a book that came out awhile back titled The Greatest Generation about the American generation that came of age during the Great Depression and WWII. No doubt about it, they really did show some great, good qualities. However, the majority of them were certainly not good to dark-skinned Americans, for instance. The founders of this country were likewise good in many ways, but most of them shared this same failing to an even greater degree. And going to the opposite extreme of overall goodness, it seems that Hitler could be quite "good" towards a pet dog (German Shepherd of course) or to some golden-haired child who caught his eye in a crowd but was anything but good towards those he viewed as sub-Aryans.

20

Do the Sadduccees deserve to be seen in a more favorable light?

by True North in

does anyone remember the old joke about the sadduccees, that they didn't believe in the resurrection and that's why they were "sad-you-see"?

i think that on the whole, the sadduccees get pretty bad press from both jews and christians and i've often thought that maybe they don't entirely deserve it.

i know that they are said to have been "the establishment", collaborating with the romans and trying to keep a lid on the trouble being stirred up by the pharisees, the zealots, and the assorted messianic movements in order to preserve their own privileges and status.

True North

Does anyone remember the old joke about the Sadduccees, that they didn't believe in the resurrection and that's why they were "sad-you-see"?

I think that on the whole, the Sadduccees get pretty bad press from both Jews and Christians and I've often thought that maybe they don't entirely deserve it. I know that they are said to have been "the establishment", collaborating with the Romans and trying to keep a lid on the trouble being stirred up by the Pharisees, the zealots, and the assorted messianic movements in order to preserve their own privileges and status. OK, that doesn't sound so good -- especially to someone like me who was young in the 60s.

On the other hand, I'm guessing that they did support the standard set of civic and moral virtues and, although they were just "imperfect men" (where have we heard that before?), they did this in spite of the fact that they weren't trying to gain some reward or avoid some punishment in the afterlife or resurrection (because they didn't believe in an afterlife or resurrection). Isn't there something to be said for acting reasonably decently (at least by the standards of the day) most of the time for no other reason than that it makes sense or is the right thing to do as opposed to adhering to some moral code in order to get an eternal reward (and avoid an eternal punishment). I mean, if someone doesn't do something because they think they'll be killed or tortured if they do, or they do something because they think they'll get a big reward if they do so, how does that make their behavior virtuous? Of course, it could be argued that the Sadduccees were simply looking to gain Roman favors and avoid Roman punishments but, if so, that seems to make them more like the Pharisees and Christians than different.

As for trying to keep a lid on trouble, was that such a bad thing? Hadn't the Romans already cut the Jews a deal that was better than what many of the conquered peoples in the Empire had (and that was certainly better than the conditions the Maccabees had revolted against back in the days of "Greek" rule). As things turned out after 70 C.E., which course of action would have been better for the Jews, that of the cooperative Sadducees or that of the rebellious Pharisees and zealots?

27

Why Did You Leave "The Truth"?

by Corvin in

lurkers come in and out of this forum.

some lurkers suddenly have bouts of righteous indignation and become trolls that lash out at some of the subject matter posted here by x-jw's.

they accuse many of "leaving jehovah" for fleshly desires.

True North

Because I finally accepted the fact that I no longer believed it and didn't want to live the lie of acting as if I still did.

26

hi everyone first time posting

by prgirl in

i have been reading the posts for a while now, and it has really helped.

i wasn't sure if i should post, but i have been so touched reading about other peoples experiences that i wanted to share mine.

i was never raised jw.

True North

I consider myself fortunate that I don't have a child with him, that we are not married, and most of all that my family is not JW.

Hi prgirl,

I wish I could have shown your good sense around thirty years ago when I got involved with a JW girl. (I also wish that this forum and http://www.freeminds.org/ had been around back then. Of course, we didn't even have the Internet and Web at the time.) When I met her, she was temporarily straying from the cult and I was at a particularly vulnerable point in my life. Unfortunately, when she decided that she could no longer continue a relationship with a "worldly person", I started "studying" and eventually joined up and married her.

About ten years later, I finally woke up and got out of the cult but it never got out of my life. My wife is still a JW and views me as the enemy; my kids have suffered the loss of a normal childhood; and my non-JW family lost out on being able to enjoy a normal relationship with their grandchildren, nieces, nephews, etc.

One piece of advice I'd give you, if I may: if he ever tells you that he's decided he wants to rekindle the relationship with you, be extremely cautious. Unless he can really demonstrate that he's completely out of the cult and -- just as important -- that it's out of him, he would be a bad, bad risk to get involved with again. There's just too much of a chance that either he'll revert or just get stuck in a lifelong "funk," being neither here nor there.

There's actually a movie that came out in the 90s that can serve as a cautionary tale about the potential dangers of getting involved with an ex-JW who's not really free of the cult, even though it's not about JWs. The movie is "Not Without My Daughter", which reviewer Marshall Fine describes on amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005N89Q/qid%3D1081447875/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/104-2789999-9879122) as follows: "Sally Field plays Betty Mahmoody, an American who marries an Iranian (Alfred Molina) and has a child. They go back to Iran for a visit and, to her horror, he tells her he's decided to stay there. If she wants to leave, she must leave her daughter behind. If she stays, Betty must live in a culture vastly different and, she believes, very dangerous."

Take care and consider yourself lucky to have found out the score early on.

-- True North

9

If the Watchtower kept you out of college, here is a quick way back in:

by gitasatsangha in

jw
friends

i know a lot of folks are like me and probably had to get their education mostly from experience due to the watchtower's stand on education.

i wanted to share some things i found which were helpful to me, and might also be to others thinking of going back.

this all refers to distance education, as i travel a great deal and don't have time to go to a regular college.. excelsior college (run by the new york board of regents), has a special system set up where you can "credit bank" previous experience, credits taken from other colleges, corporate training, etc towards a degree.

True North

Several years ago when I was considering my post-JW college options I looked into a "Regents College" which I think has since become Excelsior College. If it's the same one I'm thinking of, they had a very good program and went out of their way to help "late starters" to qualify with any existing college credits they already had and also by giving very generous amounts of credit for passing various standardized tests. In particular, they gave a surprisingly large amount of credit for passing some of the GRE (Graduate Record Examinations) subject tests: economics, sociology, history, etc.

Also, since at the time I wanted to leave open the possibility of entering a masters degree program, I checked with the top university in my area to see if they would accept a Bachelor's degree from them, and they said that they would as they were indeed accredited by a recognized accrediting association. (Disclaimer: I don't know if this is still true or if it would apply to all "regular" university graduate programs so it would be wise for anyone considering such a program to check it out for themselves.)

18

The WT wrecking ball's in action again

by FreeWilly in

jw
friends

well my folks seem determined to drive what remains of their family right off the cliff!

i should have known better, but after enduring various insults after explaining why i won't attend the memorial, i too off the gloves.

i threw the un scandal into the mix.

True North

My Mom...has hated me from the day I was born....She is a good person.

Country Girl, that doesn't seem very good to me.

"It doesn't seem to bother your conscience to treat your family members like crap."

Funny how JWs can treat their family members -- especially their non-JW family members -- like crap but as long as they go to the meetings, show up occasionally for "field service", and don't let their kids celebrate Christmas or birthdays, then they're still better than any "worldly" person.

41

demonized!!

by pc in

jw
friends

i'm sorry i just had to post this.

i'm sitting reading all the post on the tv shows and movies we weren't allowed to watch.

i am now completely hysterical laughing out loud at how insane this all was.

True North

"I was going to record some of them, but most of them are demonized!"

Nosferatu,

How the heck could someone consider "Country Life" to be "demonized"? Brian Eno, who seemed the most "out there" of the Roxy boys, wasn't even in the band anymore by that time. I actually saw Roxy Music in concert back in the early days (yes, I'm that old -- sad, isn't it) without experiencing any poltergeistic side effects. (On the other hand, it wasn't too long after that when I started to be drawn into the JW fold which turns out to have been a pretty demonic experience, so who knows. Hmmm....)

Neither do I have "demon attacks" anymore.

Corvin,

Did your Witness family members actually terrorize you so much with this contemptible nonsense that you thought you were experiencing demon attacks? That's so terrible: it's really a kind of child abuse, isn't it? Luckily (hey, I like typing that word enough to do it again), luckily, I got out while my kids were still very young so at least they didn't have two parents laying these fears on them and also my wife couldn't do so while I was around. However, I know she didn't feel so constrained when I wasn't around.

BTW, congratulations on your having liberated yourself from this JW-induced phobia; I think that is a real accomplishment. Was there anything in particular that you did to overcome this?

12

How many "annointed" JWs have there been since Russell started?

by True North in

has the wt org.

published any figures on how many faithful "annointed" they think there've been since russell got things started back in the 1800s?

would be interested in subtracting that number from 144,000 to see how many faithful christians the jws say there were in the previous 1800 years or so.

True North

Has the WT org. published any figures on how many faithful "annointed" they think there've been since Russell got things started back in the 1800s? Would be interested in subtracting that number from 144,000 to see how many faithful Christians the JWs say there were in the previous 1800 years or so.

8

Can we talk Moonies...please!

by astro_girl in

this is the first thread i have ever started (gulp) i hope i am doing this right!

i am going to see my brother and his family (the moonies) next week (they live in eastern germany) and i just became a bit anxious.

i spoke to my niece (she's 15) on the phone and she told me her uncle (on my brother's wife side, no one else in the family are moonies) has banned my brother from coming on his property.

True North

There's a guy named Steven Hassan who used to be a Moonie, back in the 1970s I think it was. After he left them he became a counselor for helping other people to leave cults of various sorts. He wrote two books which you can check into on amazon.com in case you're interested. They are Combatting Cult Mind Control -- his first book, which goes into his personal experience with the Moonies -- and Releasing The Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves. In both books he provides his methods that he advises family members to use to help a family member to leave a cult. He also has a Web site which is at www.freedomofmind.com. (Disclaimer: I don't have any personal experience with the application of his methods, so I can't personally vouch for them. However, I think that someone in your situation would at least find what he has to say of interest.)

21

Question for those who chose to be JW

by pc in

jw
friends

i was born into the borg, i was wondering what made you join.

my mother who is now deceased use to say she did all this research.

my brother keeps stating that as this great fact to me.

True North

When I was young, inexperienced, and at a particularly vulnerable point in my life, I got deeply involved with a JW girl who was temporarily straying from the flock. When she decided to head back in, I followed along like a lamb to the slaughter.